The Philip Harrell b.1787 Nelson Co. Ky who married Catherine Reading (Redding) in Butler Co. in 1812 is the family that I am related. It has been a mystery determining who Philip Harrell b. 1787 father might been. Earlier family genealogist found his will, but no sources confirming Philip’s father . One hypothesis was/is that Jame Harrell Sr. b.1747 Nasemond Co., Va and died 1817 Nelson Co. hence my interest Harrell’s of Decatur Co. My family lived in the Walnut Creek twp, Argo, Indiana area. In addition the mention of the family “Crume” caught my eye. This family name sold land to Philip Harrell 1787 . If you have not seen the Crume-Family :Three Generations by Rick Crume 1995 it is interesting reading. It mentions James Harrell’s marriage to Elizabeth Crume 1783 and other valuable information.
Also does the M. in James M. Harrell stand for Marion?
Hi Cathie – I am Bill Thielbahr and helped put together the 14 Harrell family piece including Family #10. As my discussion about Family #10 states, this particular group of Harrells living in Butler Co., OH in the 1805-1815 timeframe has puzzled us for a long time. We know that in this group of Harrells, Chester Harrell is directly related (DNA match) to my Harrell line. I do not know how Phillip, Nancy Jane, Jesse, Gabriel, and William are linked. The name “Phillip” is rarely seen in my Harrell line, Gabriel is also not seen, Jesse is found occasionally, and Nancy and William are common. From the description of the 14 families, you will only see Phillip in Family #10 and Family #12 and we don’t know how they are linked.
My long-time genealogy colleague has put together a list of children of your Phillip Harrell who married Catherine Reading: (1) James H. Harrell b. 1814 Butler Co. d. bef 1870 Decatur Co., IN; (2) William Harrell b. 1815 Dearbon Co., d. bef 1880 Decatur Co.; (3) Nancy Harrell b. 1819 Dearborn Co.; (4) Jesse Ray Harrell b. 1822 probably Decatur Co., d. bef 1860 IN; (5) Sarah A. Harrell b. 1823 IN; (6) Hannah Harrell b. 1825 Dearborn or Decatur Co, m. W.W. McKay or John H. Patton; (7) Mary A. Harrell b. 1830 Decatur Co; (8) Catherine Harrell b. 1833, Decatur Co., m. Henry Patton; (9) Philip Marion Harrell, b. Feb 1836, Decatur Co. If any of this info is incorrect or incomplete, please let me know. I don’t know which branch of this family you descend from but I have been in contact with a descendant of Phillip Marion Harrell and he also does not know of Phillip’s siblings or parents.
You asked if the “M” in the EKA James M. Harrell could be “Marion”. It’s possible but because we have no credible source for this middle initial being “M”, we have since decided to completely remove his middle name and cite “James Harrell” as this EKA. If we obtain more info supporting a middle name, we will add it back in.
You have the same problem we have – we also don’t know Phillip’s parents and don’t know his siblings. Do you have any guesses as to who his siblings might be? Any of them? We have seen that often the Harrells travel together or ultimately live near each other and knowing what property they purchased helps identify relatives who may have lived next/near them. Do you have any info on where Phillip lived (specifically, deed descriptions) and who his neighbors were? Except for his first child, James H. Harrell, all children were born in either Dearborn or Decatur Co.
The naming of Harrell children often gives us clues as to close relatives. If we have his first child identified correctly, James H. Harrell, this usually reflects the father’s father. In this case we could speculate that Phillip’s father is James Harrell. You have speculated that Phillips father could be James Harrell 1747 Nansemond Co. d. 1817 Nelson Co. Over the last 15 years of doing Harrell research, along with others, we have determined that the large group of Harrells with roots in Nansemond Co., VA and neighboring Bertie Co., NC were never in contact with the smaller group of Northern VA Harrells (my Harrell line) – they didn’t live near each other and the DNA of both groups are different. Many Harrell researchers who have not studied these 2 groups of Harrells often mix them up and create a lot of misinformation. So, with this in mind, I don’t believe that Phillip’s father was from Nansemond, but he could be the “James” that died in Nelson Co. in 1817. Or, his father could be from Nansemond but never lived in Nelson – if this were the case, the Harrell DNA would be different than those of the 14 families. If you have the identity of this James who died in Nelson Co. in 1817, I would like to know it. There are many, many James Harrells who lived in Nelson Co. and its vicinity in this timeframe.
In our research of these Butler Co. Harrells, and other Harrells of Indiana, my colleague and I have speculated that there could be an unknown James Harrell, the father of many of these early Harrells in Butler Co., Decatur, Dearborn. Unfortunately, there are so many unknown early James Harrells, that we can’t identify him. It remains pure speculation.
I was thrilled to see you respond to this new Harrell Collaboration website. We have finished our 3 generations of Family #1 and nearly finished with Family #2. We are now working on Family #3. We want to limit our effort to just the first 3 generations of each Family EKA so as to get the info out as quickly as possible. We have more generations of info on each family and in time will add it to the Collaboration. Our focus is to try and find info that links these 14 families and anything you can provide will help.
Best Regards, Bill Thielbahr email@example.com
Yes, I do have a hypothesis. A distant cousin started on our family side almost 20 years ago with his Grandmother, my Great Aunt. He was convinced that James Harrell b. 1747 Nansemond Co. Va and d. 1831 in Nelson Co. KY. I too believe that evaluation. Difficulty is with sources and documentation. One journal published by the Crume family confirms association with the Harrell family. The following excerpts might explain:
The Crume Family: Three Generations, January 1995, By Rick Crume, 131 130th St S Glyndon, MN 56547-9551 http://www.onelibrary.com
Elizabeth Crume, 19 April 1762,87 probably in Frederick County, Virginia; died after 16 April 1801 when her father wrote his will,88 and perhaps before 1810 in Nelson County, Kentucky. She was married 25 March 1783 in Shenandoah County, Virginia, to James Herrell who may have been the James Harrell/Herrold who appears in Nelson County, Kentucky a couple of years later. Various spellings of the name James Harrell appear in the Nelson County tax lists for the years 1785 to 1789.89 A James Herrold living northeast of Bardstown was listed in the 1789 Nelson County, Kentucky, militia list.90 A James Herrold shows up in the Nelson County tax list of 16 November 179291 and a James Harrell appears on the 1800 list92 dated 30 August, the same date recorded for other members of the Crume family who migrated from Virginia to Kentucky in about 1794 to 1795. And a James Harrell was enumerated in the 1810 and 1820 censuses of Nelson County. The 1810 census shows one male over age 45, five males ages 16 to 26 and two females ages 10 to 16, but no female over age 16. Apparently his wife had died before this census. In 1831 a James Herral of Nelson County deeded Negro children named Jason and Hanny to his daughter Lear Gibbs of Davis County, Kentucky. He also deeded three Negroes, Mary, Margaret and Elizabeth, to his granddaughters, Nancy and Margaret Herral, heirs of James Herral, Jr., deceased, of Shelby County, Kentucky.93
86Nelson Co., KY, Will Book E:198-200. 87Family Bible record of Philip Crume. 88Nelson Co., KY, Will Book A-1:470. 89Margaret Johnson Schroeder, Residents of Nelson County, Virginia (Now Kentucky) Recorded in Tithable and Tax Lists (Bardstown, KY: Schroeder, c. 1988) vol. 1 (1785-1791). 90Research by Lucy B. (Allen) Geoghegan, Bardstown, KY. 91Charles Brunk Heinemann, First Census of Kentucky, 1790 (1940; reprint, Baltimore: Genealogical Publ. Co., 1981). This is not the 1790 census, but a compilation of tax lists. 92Garrett Glenn Clift, Second Census of Kentucky: a Privately Compiled and Published Enumeration of Tax Payers Appearing in the 79 Manuscript Volumes Extant of Tax Lists of the 42 Counties of Kentucky in Existance in 1800 (Frankfort, KY: KY Hist. Soc., 1954). 93Nelson Co., KY, Deed Book 18:390. 94Family Bible record of Philip Crume. 95Nelson Co., KY, Administrators Bond, p. 59.
With this information and knowing that the Philip Crume was the father of Elizabeth, I think there is a possibility that the above couple might be the father of Philip Harrell b. 1787 Nelson Co. KY. He later married Catherine Redding and settled on property that he bought from Daniel Crume in 1828 who happened to be Elizabeth Crume Harrell’s brother. In addition, a valid explanation of the unusual occurrence of the family name “Philip” that has riddled my side of the Harrell family.
The following is also from Crume Family: Three Generations:
“In 1821 Daniel bought land in Clinton Township, Decatur County, Indiana, and in the next year’s county elections he was a candidate for associate judge.76 He and his wife Hannah sold the land in Decatur County on 20 March 1827 to Phillip Harrell.77 She signed the deed. It’s the last record we have of the couple and we don’t know where they moved or when they died.”
As for the relationship between “James Harrell b. 1747 and Chester Harrell son of William Harrell b. 1728 and married Susannah Chester “James and William Harrell are brothers and sons of Richard Harrell Jr. b. 1675. Our distant cousin had made this evaluation. In my DNA summary, Philip D.2 Crume (Daniel1). On 23 December 1749 is present.
Finally, the Philip Harrell b. 1787 had a son named Jesse Ray Harrell b. 1813 in KY (presumed Nelson Co.) married Mary Ward b. 1816, whose son Philip Edward Harrell b. 1883 is my Great Grandfather.
Philip Marion Harrell, son of Philip Harrell b. 1787 was in the Civil War.
At the moment my father who is a Harrell is having his DNA done. Should prove interesting. Do tell me more or what I might do to help. It is very puzzling to get the sources for confirmation.
Cathie – Very interesting info you provided. First off, I have read all of the Crume 3 generations and thought the part about Elizabeth Crume and James Herrell included a variety of James Harrell/Herrell individuals that the author clearly didn’t understand. There were more than 1 James Harrells living in Nelson Co.: (1) James Harrell b. probably in the 1730s or early 1740s, the s/o Richard Harrell b. abt 1700 (you cite 1765 which reflects an earlier Richard Harrell) who came to Nelson around 1780 (I have his land warrant); (2) James Jr. whom we can’t prove might be the son of James Harrell Sr. (s/o Richard 1700); (3) James Harrell, the son of William b. in the 1730s in Frederick/Augusta Co., VA who is s/o Richard 1700; and (4) James Harell b. 1762 who is son of Moses who is s/o Richard 1700. I also have the tax lists and census info from early KY.
I see where you are convinced that James Harrell b. 1747 in Nansemond came to Nelson Co. Putting aside my thinking that this Nansemond connection could not have happened, I am interested in why you think this James Harrell was b. 1747 – this is very important in narrowing the choices of who this James Harrell might link to.
You have included info I had not known about: “In 1831 a James Harral of Nelson County deeded Negro children named Jason and Hanny to his daughter Leer Gibbs of Davis Co., KY. He also deeded 3 Negroes Mary, Margaret and Elizabeth to his granddaughters Nancy and Margaret Harral heirs of James Herral Jr., deceased of Shelby Co., KY.” I don’t know, at this time, which James Herral Jr. this is.
When you say “I think there is a possibility that the above couple might be the father of Phillip Harrell b. 1787” – I think you mean the “couple” enumerated in the 1810/1820 Nelson census – is this correct?
You explain “the relationship between ‘James Harrell b. 1747 and Chester Harrell son of William Harrell b. 1728 and married Susannah Chester’. You believe James and William Harrell are brothers and sons of Richard Harrell Jr. b. 1675. I didn’t understand your reference to “On 23 December 1749 is present.” – who was present for what? The James Harrell you reference as b. 1747 could not be the son of Richard because all 6 sons of Richard were “of age” by 1758 when Richard divided his property among his 6 sons. Not being sure of the birth of this James Harrell is understood because it takes a deep understanding of Richard Harrell b. abt 1700 and his sons which most people don’t invest in. You are correct in having James as a brother to William who did marry Susannah Chester in about 1750, before William and his brothers James and Moses left for KY around 1780.
So as I understand what your distant cousin believed, the father to your Phillip Harrell b. 1787 is probably James Harrell s/o Richard Harrell (you say b. 1765) of Frederick/Augusta Co. Based on records of Augusta/Frederick Co., VA, we believe most of the 6 sons of Richard Harrell were born in the 1730s and if James was born in this timeframe it is possible he could have had a son Phillip b. 1787 but not highly probable. It seems more probable that perhaps James’ son James Jr. could be the father of Phillip 1787. Then, again, this James could be s/o William; this James born abt 1752 and died maybe Nelson Co. at date unknown. Then, again, this James could be s/o Moses (who is s/o Richard) who was b. abt 1762 and died about 1836 in Daviess Co., KY and married Eliz Crume (and we think started having children around 1784).
This is the difficulty I, and others face, when trying to separate the different James Harrells. There is a story you might recall about a Rev War James Harrell who obtained 200 acres of land in Nelson Co. for his service. Some think this Rev War soldier came from Nansemond – but the supporting evidence is missing. Yes, there was a Rev. War soldier named James Harrell and yes, there was a James Harrell from Nansemond, and yes, there was 200 acres given to a Rev. War soldier James Harrell, but some connect the dots in the wrong way. I have studied this Rev War soldier and the 200 acres and I’m convinced he was not from Nansemond (Hellyn Carrier, dec’d, did research on the Harrells of this area and it was her (incorrect) opinion that this James came from Nansemond – that is probably where your distant cousin developed his thinking). The 200 acres happens to be located near where William Harrell (s/o Richard) lived in Nelson Co. and was later traded for land in OH – this William Harrell owned over 1000 acres.
For your information, before you responded to our Harrell Collaboration, it was our wild speculation that the father of Philllip, and a few other Harrells, was a James Harrell. We just don’t know which James Harrell he is.
You have given me new info to study: In 1831 James Herral of Nelson deeded slaves to his daughter Lear Gibbs of Daviess Co., KY and also deeded slaves to his granddaughters Nancy and Margaret Herral, heirs of James Herral Jr. dec’d of Shelby Co. I need to identify who this James Herral is. Many thanks for this information. – Bill Thielbahr
Hello Cathie – My colleague found the document wherein James Herral deeds his slaves to daughter Lear Herral Gibbs and to his granddaughters Nancy and Margaret, heirs of James Herral Junior. This James Herral b. abt 1762 VA, d. abt 1836 Daviess Co., KY is son of Moses Harrell (s/o Richard Harrell 1700) and married Elizabeth Crume. This James Herral 1762 had a son James D. Harrell b. abt 1784 VA, d. bef 1831 Nelson Co., KY who is the father of Margaret and Nancy. Still no answer as to the father of your Phillip Harrell.
About your father taking the DNA test. I hope he is taking the test through FamilyTreeDNA as they have the largest databank of Harrell DNA donors. I also hope he requested (paid for) at least 37 DNA markers. I am one of the co-administrators of this Harrell DNA databank if you need further info. Bill Thielbahr
This is exciting! You must understand that I am by no means closed to any thoughts of conviction of my family lineage. I am thrilled to see all the information that you have developed and shared. With this in mind I will try and answer some of your questions that you have posed. Bare in mind that my family history of the Harrell’s up to and including all those prior to 1840’s is a maze of pieces that were put together by others that I am spring boarding my research to pursue credible sources. Hence my suggestion of Philip Harrell b. 1787 Bardstown, KY and his affiliation/relation to Crume family and the name “Philip” (possible parents James Herral b. ??? — according to Crume documentation).
Q. When you say “I think there is a possibility that the above couple might be the father of Phillip Harrell b. 1787” – I think you mean the “couple” enumerated in the 1810/1820 Nelson census – is this correct?
You have expressed many thoughts, but as usual: puzzle pieces provide only questions to lead to “the answer”.
As for Gabriel Harrell have you looked into “U.S., Encyclopedia of American Quaker Genealogy, Vol I-VI, 1607-1943” In the Indiana Wayne Chester Monthly Meeting I found mention of Gabriel Harrell. In addition, b. 8-12-1776 son of Thomas b. ??? and Amey Harrell (b.1751; d.1821 11-19; bur. Woodbury).
As for my father’s DNA, it is being done on FamilyTree DNA with 37 markers. It was submitted in April with several dates of completion that have been postponed. Presently the projected date is sometime in July. I certainly hope there are no more delays since my father is in his late 80s and not in good health.
Since I am not familiar with the science of DNA, I will mention that his DNA may not be what you are in need of. My Grandfather and Grandmother Harrell are first cousins. Grandfather Merton Harrell’s mother was a Harrell, but father unknown. He was left with his Grandfather Philip Edward Harrell (b. 1843) living in Argos, Indiana. My Grandmother Ruth Harrell’s mother was a Harrell too. I pursued the DNA to determine my late Grandfather Merton Harrell’s father. Although it was on the birth certificate, his first name must be a nickname.
Since I have retired, I was able to go to the National Archives in DC, but didn’t find anything of value. My next trip out, I will look closer to Va. counties specifically Frederick, and or Augusta. As I find other items of interest in my research, I volley a discussion with you. You provide a wealth of information!
Hi Cathie – I have more info re James Harrell but can’t send it now (other duties are required). But, my colleague Hazel has followed your postings and has the following question for you starting with a statement you made in your last posting:
“I pursued the DNA to determine my late Grandfather Merton Harrell’s father. Although it was on the birth certificate, his first name must be a nickname.”
Hazel’s question is:
Would you please ask Cathie the name listed on the birth certificate. I have Merton’s father as William Alonzo “Lou/Lon” Alderfer 1879. I have Merton’s mother as Clara Ruth Harrell 1886.
I await your response. Bill
Hi Hazel, (I have a distance cousin named Hazel but nicknamed Merty)
You have a question related to my Grandpa Merton Harrell’s father. Is that correct? If so that is the difficulty. Clara Harrell Alderfer Rosebaum married Alderfer after Grandpa (Merton) was born. I never found the divorce papers but I did find Clara’s marriage to him. I even made a trip over to Marshal Co. Historic Society in Indiana to see if they might have a record of any Harrell or the divorce papers. The librarian couldn’t find anything, but stated that her mother knew the Harrell family. The librarian mentioned that they had nicknames…Kutch (Jesse) Harrell, but no divorce papers for Clara Harrell and Lonny Alderfer (I have a picture of his family). On the birth certificate I sent away for, and also a birth certificate copy my Aunt Jo had, all indicate that Lonny Alderfer wasn’t the father. I will note that he and his parents were living in Philip E. and Lucetta Harrell’s house in census. Grandpa Merton’s father was a secret until Grandma Ruth died. A copy of birth certificate stating Grandpa Merton’s real father as Bulber Dunnell and an affidavit that Grandma Clara Harrell Alderfer Rosebaum signed on April 29, 1942 stating Bulber Dunnell as the father. I have since found Donnell, ODonnell, and Donnely as possible spellings. A sidebar to this is: On Grandpa Merton’s birth certificate his name was: Dowan Dunnell born in Starke Co., San Pierre, Indiana. My Mom told me Grandpa Merton was born at “Poor Hand Maidens for Jesus Christ”. With all of this information no one seems to know who Donnell or Dunnell might be. Hazel do you? Have a good day! What is your interest in my Grandparents?
Hi Cathy – I am helping Bill and John research the Harrells with matching DNA. My great grandmother was a Harrell. I saw your Grandpa Merton listed as Murton Dtain Aldafee in the 1910 Marshall Co., IN census. So I assumed he was the son of Clara Ruth Harrell and William Alonzo Alderfer. I will make this change. I am sorry I have nothing regarding Bulber Dunnell, etc. Good luck with your research! Hazel
A notation I found about a Gabriel Harrell’s death in 9 Sept 1840 in Decatur Co. Indiana. It also names his sons Jacob, ]ohn, and James bought the property. Final settlements 16 Aug 1843. Distribution named Rachel 1/3 wife; Jacob, John, and James 2/3.
Salt Lake in the FHL Decatur Co. Indiana; Probate Record Book C Court Records Decatur Co. Indiana 1822-1848 p.142 ,p. 194, p.350.
I compared the notes from the Quaker meeting of White Water monthly meeting of Wayne county Friends p.150 ;it was noted that in a Gabriel Harrell son of Amy Harrell; married Sally Powell .
In addition, I found a guardianship for the children of Jesse Raymond Harrell 1855 . Nathan Crume was named guardian of Jesse’s children Phillip E ., Sarah Catharine, Almira B., James William, and Winnie Anna Bell. These facts were also found in FHL Salt Lake
Cathie & Hazel, Have either of you done a FamilyFinder test? Using the Chromosome Browser, I checked with surnames of Fox and Bonner, and neither of you show up (logging in to my father’s account, Norman Gayle Rhinehart). There is one person named John Wilson Harrell, and with him I get “John Wilson Harrell matches you on chromosome 12 from position 9044524 to 16729105 for a total of 11.35 cM” – Not much of a match, but that far back it is probably to be expected. Bill, do you know who that is, and what family? (no Bussell surnames, BTW)
Here is where you’ll find my Nancy:
“The librarian mentioned that they had nicknames…Kutch (Jesse) Harrell”
I have a Kutch buried at the Harrell cemetery in Bloomfield, Ind
Kutch, 16666038 b. Apr. 6, 1858 d. Jan. 26, 1861
Jesse Oren Harrell b. Jesse Oren “Kutch” Harrell
Birth 6 DEC 1880 • Decatur, Indiana, USA
Death 15 DEC 1966 • Plymouth, Marshall, Indiana, USA
Are your related to him? Hope so. Looking for other Harrell’s from that area. If so I have pictures of the family and a few stories that my Dad told about him. I believe my father was the last grandchild to stay with Lucetta Maxson Harrell. By the time my father was born Phillip Edward Harrell. b. 1843 had died. By the way I was at Nara to photo copy the Civil War records of Phillip E Harrell before they all go on line to look through. He mustered out of Indy and had the bad case of measles that he was still ill with at the time. Later he was kicked by a mule in the war which caused a life time of illness and misfortune for the family. Please contact me if you would.
A correction and addition in the family of Jacob Harrell 1818-1895:
Jacob Harrell 1818-1895 born in Decatur Co IN married13 Jan 1842 in Decatur Co, IN to Mary Ann Creamer 1820-1906 daughter of Daniel Creamer b. Ky lived in Clinton Twp Decatur Co, IN (FAG#53993114) and Anna Smyser (FAG#93484185) daughter of Philip and Mary Smyser.
This Daniel and Anna Creamer are both buried in Butcher Cemetery, Decatur Co, IN) There are some Harrells also buried in that same cemetery. In same cemetery there is Phillip Harrell b 1787-1857 (Phillip Herrall was listed on the 1830, 1840, and 1850 census for Decatur Co IN (I thought it interesting that he had males listed of the same age as Jacob in first two census, may be nothing but interesting). –the 1850 census info says he was born in KY.
Jacob Harrell 1818-1895 and Mary Ann Creamer were married Jan. 13, 1842 in Decatur Co, IN by Justice of the Peace George Mclaughlin
also married that same year in same county by same Justice of the Peace: on June 15, 1842 James Harrell married a Sarah Creamer.
Two of Jacob and Mary Ann Harrell’s children married two of James Burton 1810-1883 and Martha Furguson’s children (these are not correctly listed on your record of children of Jacob Harrell beginning list for Family #10.)
J. M. (James Matthew) HARRELL b. Jan 10, 1857 d. Aug. 13, 1942 he was a noted farmer of Lagro and Chester townships and became the husband of Rose E. “Dolly” (Burton) daughter of James Burton.
Martha Jane HARRELL b. Jan. 10, 1857 d. Apr. 23, 1928 m. John W. Burton son of James Burton.
Found it interesting that it was mentioned on your collaborative that Phillip Harrell lived for a while in Butler Co, OH. James Burton 1810-1883 also lived for a while in Butler County, Ohio.
hi I am at a lost , I been searching for imformation for William Marion Harrell who married Carrie Mitchell for years , he died in lousisana 1n 1938
In September 2009, a Harrell descendant of this line took the DNA test and his results matched the other Harrell lines. The donor knew his earliest kn…
[ See the full post at: Family #10 – EKA Jacob Harrell 1818]
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